Home > Class Analysis > Mirror WAR – WL v. Marauder

Mirror WAR – WL v. Marauder

Before I jump into my post today I wanted to redirect my readers to the Herald for a quasi-Producer’s Letter. It pretty much just links all the developer discussion threads, announces a 25% reduction in cost on transfers, and says that Mythic is still working on Grovod and the crafting updates.

On to today’s post. Continuing with the Mirror WAR I follow my Order train-of-thought and proceed onto the White Lion. The problem with the White Lion is that in the truest essence it has no mirror, at least not in the sense that many of its abilities are shared/mirrored over onto a Destruction class. Mechanically speaking the White Lion’s mirror is the Squig Herder, but all they have in common is that they both have pets, pets which fulfill different roles. The archetypal mirror of the White Lion is the Marauder, but only because the other two melee dps have rather clear mirrors and the Marauder is left without a mirror of its own on Order. Thus the White Lion and the Marauder are lumped together as mirrors, however in truth they have very little in common.

The White Lion is a melee dps class clad in medium armor with a great-weapon, the only melee dps forced into a great-weapon. Its mechanic is the War Lion, a melee pet around which the White Lion is built. However, due to the problematic nature of the pet and its pathing it proves unreliable and because so much of the classes utility is built around the pet the class falls short. The White Lion’s three mastery trees are broken down into: Hunter – a path focused on the White Lion working together with the war lion;  Axeman – a path focused on your pet distracting while you deal damage; and Guardian – a path focused on you distracting while your pet deals damage. So you can see from this general break-down and yesterday’s post that the Squig Herder’s pet and mastery trees fulfill different roles – the Squig Herder’s mastery trees are not built around the Squig Herder operating with the pet, instead the pet is simply supplemental damage.

The Marauder is likewise a medium armor melee dps class with two one-handed weapons, with the option that its off-hand can be mutated into a limb which retains the statistics of the off-hand weapon but grants bonus effects. The Marauder’s mechanical mirror is the Shadow Warrior and they share the limitations of their mechanic, but again the Marauder fulfills a different role in combat than the Shadow Warrior and they cannot be considered mirrors. Until recently the Marauder’s intended mirror, the White Lion, shared very little in common. Small steps have been made in recent patches to bring their abilities into closer parity.

As a rule of thumb the White Lion’s abilities cost about 10 Action points more then the Marauder’s abilities, most likely because the White Lion uses a great-weapon. Let’s examine this odd couple closely and see how dissimilar they are.

‘Stances’

  • The White Lion has one pet, the war lion, which costs 55AP to summon and has a 15s CD upon death. In comparison, the Squig Herder has four squigs which also cost 55AP and have a 30s CD which only applies to that squig when it dies or is unsummoned. The War Lion has three ‘stances’ each paired with a mastery tree.
    • In Trained to Hunt the war lion’s strength, toughness, wounds, and weapon skill are increased by 50% of the player’s stats. The war lion also gains three abilities: one reducing the auto-attack speed of all enemies within 30ft by 20% for 10 seconds; a 25ft cone AoE cleave; and a direct attack. The White Lion gains a 10% chance to deal 396 damage over 3 seconds (132 dmg/s).
    • In Trained to Threaten the war lion’s wounds and toughness are increased by your stats and the pet gains three abilities: a 10s DoT and 40% snare (at RR100 1070 dmg/10s = 107dmg/s); a damaging attack and armor reduction over 10 seconds (before recent changes the only armor reduction the White Lion had); and a taunt and interrupt. The White Lion gains an increased chance to critically hit his enemies while at their back or side by 5%.
    • In Trained to Kill the war lion’s strength and weapon skill are increased by yours and the pet gains three abilities: a damage plus a 15 second DoT; another damaging ability; and another damaging ability which hits twice. The White Lion gains a toughness increase while in this stance.
  • The Marauder by comparison has three mutations, which like the SW stances cost no AP and have a 5s CD. Much like the SW the Marauder’s available abilities are based off of which mutation he is in.
    • The Gift of Savagery grants the Marauder a 25% chance to deal 850 damage over 5 seconds (RR100 value) and reduce their target’s auto attack by 33%, presumably for the same duration as the DoT.
    • The Gift of Brutality grants the Marauder a 25% chance to increase their off-hand’s swing for every attack for 5 seconds and to increase its damage by 25%.
    • The Gift of Monstrosity grants the Marauder a 25% chance to recover 1032 health over 5 seconds (RR100 value) and to ignore the enemy’s armor penetration.

Core Abilitis

  • In terms of core abilities of note – the White Lion has Nature’s Bond which heals his pet for 885 over 15 seconds and Fetch, which is a 65 foot pull that requires the war lion to reach the target and pull him back – the pet however can easily be killed, kited, blocked, or parried rendering the pull unreliable.
  • The Marauder’s unique core abilities are Death Grip which is a 4 second disarm which requires a parry, and Terrible Embrace which is also a 65 foot pull which can be disrupted.

Morales

  • The White Lion at Morale 1 has Ensnare which is a 1020 damaging ability plus a 5s root. At morale 2 Flying Axe which is 1356 damage over 9 seconds dealt to all enemies 65 feet in front of the target. At morale 3 Dominance which is 2040 damage to your target and you are healed for 50% of it (1020 heal).
  • The Marauder receives Flames of Fate at morale 1 which also deals 1020 damage and places a 5s root on their target. For morale 2 Marauders get Great Fang which deals 1360 damage to all enemies within 40 feet. For morale 3 Tzeentch’s Reversal which deals 1360 damage and heals you for all the damage dealt.

Tactics

  • White Lion
    • Calming Presence – On being healed, your war lion is healed for 25% of the heal you received if it is within 30 feet of you.
    • Close Bond – You receive 50 morale every 5 seconds if your war lion is alive, if it dies you lose 600 morale.
    • Flashing Claws – Your chance to parry is increased by 10% if your war lion is active
    • Loner – Your damage is increased by 25% if your pet is not active.
    • Pack Synergy – Your’s and your pet’s critical hits deal 50% more damage if your pet is active.
    • Revenge! – If your pet dies you deal 50% more damage for 10 seconds
    • Speed Training – Your pet’s speed is increased by 50%
    • Tearing Blade – Slashing Blade and Sundering Chop deal 477 additional damage over 3 seconds
  • Marauder
    • Brush Off – Your chance to disrupt is increased by 10%
    • Deeply Impaled – Impale will increase your target’s chance to be critically hit by 10% for 15 seconds
    • Feeding On Fear – On crit, your chance to critically hit will be increased by 20% but your chance to be critically hit is increased by 10%
    • Piercing Bite – All abilities which require a mutation now bypass 50% of your target’s armor
    • Rend Asunder – Rend lasts an additional 6 seconds
    • Subvert Strength – You regain 40 AP on critical hits, cannot proc more than once per 3 seconds
    • Unending Horror – Wave of Horror (Tool-tip error, should be Wave of Terror) lasts 15 seconds
    • Widespread Demolition – Demolition’s range is increased to 30 feet

Hunter/Savagery

  • I pair these two trees from the White Lion and Marauder only because they are both on the left and share one common point, in truth they share very little.
  • Of the five core abilities for a White Lion one is a pet stance, leaving four actual abilities plus the three mastery abilities.
    • Akin to the Squig Herder’s Git Em!, the White Lion has Coordinated Strike which is a double attack by the pet and player. The remaining three core abilities are: Lion’s Fury – a spirit attack which a 5 second CD which requires the target to already be cursed; Slashing Blade – a 25 foot AoE; and Hack – a single target attack.
    • For mastery abilities the White Lion gets Pounce which is a 65 foot leap; Force Opportunity which is an undefendable attack and armor debuff for 10 seconds (1600 armor debuff maxed out); and at the top a 3 second channeled 30ft AoE attack.
    • For tactics, at Mastery Rank 3 a tactic which removes the curse requirement for Lion’s Fury, reduces its cost and increases its damage; at MR7 Pack Hunting which increases your Auto-Attack by 50% while using Trained to Threaten; and at MR11 Hack and Slash which reduces the AP cost of Hack and Slashing Blade.
    • For the Morale 4 the White Lion gets  Blade and Claw which deals 1360 damage to everyone within 30 feet of you and your pet (so 2720 if you are stacked with your pet).
  • Most of the Marauder’s abilities in Savagery require the Gift of Savagery, a few of the abilities are available in other mutations.
    • The Marauders five core abilities are: Rend – a damage + 9s DoT which can stack three times; Corruption – a toughness debuff over 20 seconds; Touch of Rot – a 10s ailment which deals corporeal damage every time your target uses a melee attack; Tainted Claw – a 25% incoming heal debuff for 5 seconds, or 10 seconds if the target is ailing; and Gut Ripper – an attack which makes your next ability critically hit.
    • For mastery abilities the Marauder gets: Tunderous Blow which is a 20 second wounds debuff (184 wounds at max which equals 1840 health loss plus the damage on the ability); Cutting Claw which is a mirror of Force Opportunity, an undefendable attack with a 10 second armor debuff; and Drain Swipe – an attack which lowers the enemy’s action point regen by 50% for 10 seconds.
    • For tactics, at MR3 an increase of Weapon Skill and Initiative while using the Gift of Savagery (184 maxed); at MR7 Exhaustive Strikes which causes your target to lose 40AP over 3 seconds anytime you critically hit; and at MR 11 Deadly Clutch which causes Tainted Claw (heal debuff) to now debuff incoming heals by 50% AND cause you to receive 50% of the heals the target receives (so you are healed for 25% of the original heal).
    • For morale 4 the Marauder has Lashing Power which is a 20s buff granting you a 33% chance to reflect damage back to an enemy within 30 feet and heal you for that amount.
  • The difference between the two trees is monumental. The White Lion deals purely direct damage with a weak dot from the proc on Trained to Hunt. Due to the high AP cost and low AA speed of the WL all three tactics are very useful (depending on what abilities you choose to use). The pet’s AA reduction is perhaps meant to mirror the proc from the Gift of Savagery, but due to the functionality of the pet the Marauders AA debuff both procs more often and on the target the Marauder is attacking. The Marauder’s tree on the other hand has two DoTs (one stackable) and four abilities severely limiting any targets survivability – wounds, toughness, armor, and incoming heals. In many cases the Marauder’s abilities have higher tool tip values than the WLs widening the divide.

Axeman/Brutality

  • These are both of the middle trees for the White Lion and Marauder, respectively.
  • Once again the WL has four core attacks and a stance modified by the Axeman tree. This tree is largely intended to be for PvE as it is designed around the pet holding aggro while the player damages – a concept which doesn’t work in PvP. For this same reason most of the abilities in this tree are positional, a requirement the Marauder does not share.
    • For core abilities we have: Blindside which is a damaging attack with a 9s DoT (477 at RR100 = 53dmg/s) and is classified as a curse but is only available at the side or rear; Sundering Chop which is a regular damaging attack which will ignore a fixed amount of the target’s armor if you are behind them; Shattering Blow which is a DoT over 9 seconds which can also reduce your target’s strength if you are behind them; and lastly Fey Illusion which reduces your enemy’s attack speed by 20% for 10 seconds.
    • For mastery abilities we have: Primal Fury which is a 10s buff (60s CD) which increase the damage you deal from the side or behind by 25%; Cull of the Weak which is an attack which always crits, but your target has to be under 50% health; and Thin the Herd which is a positional 50% outgoing heal debuff.
    • For tactics, at MR3 we have Blindsided! in which Blindside will also increase your target’s build time by 50% for 10 seconds; MR7 Threatening Distraction which reduces your threat by 75% while using Trained to Threaten; and at MR11 Full-Grown which increases your war lions strength by 68 and wounds by 136 (base 50/100, max 80/160).
    • The Morale 4 in this tree is Joy of the Hunt which fully heals your war lion and your group regains 250 action points.
  • The Marauder has 5 abilities for this tree which require the Gift of Brutality, again with some abilities from other trees crossing over.
    • For core abilities we have: Debilitate which is a 40% snare for 5 seconds; Impale which is the mirror of Sundering Chop from the WL and will deal regular damage or ignore a fixed set of armor if you are behind your target; Convulsive Slashing which is a 3 second channeled attack dealing damage every half second; Touch of Instability which is a 10 second ailment that will deal corporeal damage every time your target uses a magic ability; and lastly Pulverize which decreases your targets block and parry by 10% for 20 seconds.
    • For mastery abilities we have: Guillotine which is the same as Cull of the Weak – it is available only when the target is under 50% health and will almost always crit (though this one is MR5 not 9); Mutated Aggressor which increases your damage by 25% for 10 seconds but does not have the positional requirement; and Wave of Terror which is a 40 foot cleave and prevents all those hit from generating morale for 5 seconds.
    • For tactics we have: Corrupted Edge which increases the Marauder’s strength and initiative (by 184 at RR100) while using the Gift of Brutality; Growing Instability which causes your critical hits to deal 50% more damage (same as WL’s Pack Synergy, but the WL requires an active pet); and Unstable Convulsions which grants Convulsive Slashing a 50% chance to remove 1 enchantment for each hit.
    • The Morale 4 in this tree is Forked Aggression which is a 20s buff which redirects all damage you receive back to your attacker with a 50% boost.
  • Once again these trees are almost nothing alike. Yes, they do share a few common points but overall they are like night and day. The WL’s tree is almost entirely positional and built around the concept that your pet tanks while you damage from behind – a fine concept in PvE, but unrealistic in PvP. Also it is important to note that the White Lion is the only MDPS with an outgoing heal debuff (excluding WH/WE procs) – every other MDPS has an incoming heal debuff, and likewise it is the only heal debuff with positional requirements. While Primal Fury and Mutated Aggressor both increase damage dealt by 25%, the WLs once again is only positional damage. While the WL tree has complete synergy (just impractical for PvP), the Marauder Brutality tree is a little bit everywhere. While a snare and an armor ignore are universally applicable, Convulsive Slashing paired with Unstable Convulsions seems brutal against classes which buff themselves for survival (healers); Touch of Instability is clearly directed to be against magic casters, but Pulverize is anti-tank primarily.

Guardian/Monstrosity

  • These are both of the right trees for the White Lion and Marauder, respectively.
  • Once again the WL has four core attacks and a stance modified by the Guardian tree. This tree however is the opposite of Axeman, it intends for you to look pretty while the pet kills.
    • Of the four core abilities we have: Baiting Strike which is an attack that reduces hate on your friendly target; Cleave Limb which is a 40% snare for 10 seconds; Pack Assault which is a group buff granting an additional 120 damage on their next attack within 5 seconds; and lastly Throat Bite which is a silence but requires an active pet and is on their ‘next attack’ meaning you may accidentally 4s silence someone who it wouldn’t affect.
    • For the mastery abilities we have: Echoing Roar which is a 15ft interrupt off of you and your pet and deals 920 spirit damage over 15 seconds (=61.3dmg/s); Brutal Pounce which is a 2 second knock down off of your pets next attack; and Leonine Frenzy which is a pet buff removing snares and roots from your pet and allowing it to deal 441 additional damage on each attack every other second.
    • For tactics we have: Stalker which reduces your pets hate by 75%; Furious Mending which grants Trained to Kill the passive bonus of healing you and your pet for 108 health points every 5 seconds; and Baited Trap which grants Baiting Strike a bonus of increasing your disrupt by 10% and armor by 1039 for 10 seconds.
    • The Morale 4 in this tree is Rampage which is a 10 second buff reducing the CDs on all your abilities to 0 seconds and AP cost to 0 for both you and your pet.
  • The Marauder has 5 abilities for this tree which require the Gift of Monstrosity, again with some abilities from other trees crossing over. This tree is largely focused around AoE.
    • Of the core abilities we have: Demolition which is a 25 foot cleave; Mouth of Tzeentch which is a 40 foot interrupt (akin to Echoing Roar but with a larger radius); Ferocious Assault which is a 20s buff increasing the Marauder’s strength and toughness by 160; Mutated Energy which requires a disrupt and deals damage ‘back to the caster and knocks them down for 3 seconds’ though it is unclear if this ability only affects the person whom you disrupted or if it just requires a disrupt so you can use it on anyone; and lastly Flail which is a core attack which deals additional damage if you have a mutation.
    • Of the mastery abilities we have: Wave of Mutilation which is a 21s DoT dealing 1120 damage (56dmg/s) to all enemies within 30 feet and reduces their Weapon Skill and Initiative by 74; Concussive Jolt which is a 25ft AoE knockdown for 3 seconds; and lastly Wrecking Ball which is a 30ft channled AoE dealing damage every half second for 3 seconds.
    • Of the tactics we have: Hulking Brute which increases the Marauder’s toughness (184 at RR100) while using the Gift of Monstrosity; Insane Whispers which grands Mouth of Tzeentch the additional ability of increasing the build times of all enemies affected by 50% for 5 seconds; and Crushing Blows which grants all abilities while using the Gift of Monstrosity a 25% chance to remove 225 morale from the target.
    • The morale 4 for this tree is Energy Ripple which deals 2070 damage to all enemies within 30 feet and knocks them down for 3 seconds.
  • Again we have two trees which have nothing in common. The White Lion’s tree focuses on the pet, with two key crowd-control abilities on the pet while the player sits back and plays a supportive role. The Marauder on the other hand has an AoE tree with an undertone of anti-caster built in. Also the Marauder is the only MDPS to have a KD longer than 2s, and aside from Magus/Engi pet detonation, the only AoE knockdown in PvP. The WLs tactics reduce hate on the pet, grant a weak heal, and make the WL more defensive; the Marauder’s tactics hinder casters and lower enemy morale while also making it more defensive.

Conclusion

The White Lion and Marauder have so little in common that it is truly difficult to call them mirrors. In fact before a recent patch they had virtually nothing in common – a patch 2 years after launch. The war lion is horribly buggy and unreliable rendering the CC it could offer likewise unreliable. For the reason of the pets utility many WLs have to choose between running Loner for higher damage or retaining the pet and taking tactics and abilities which require a pet simply to put the WL on par with other MDPS.

Even if one was to compare the White Lion to the Squig Herder the comparison would not be close. The squig is supplemental to the Squig Herder, it increases damage and damage potential – there are far fewer abilities and tactics which require an active pet. In fact, the ranged aspect of the squig pet nullifies pathing issues that the war lion encounters so there is little reason to not have a squig pet active and run All By Meself. The White Lion on the other hand is built around its pet – all of its good tactics and abilities require an active pet, a pet most owners want to strangle. For almost every ability or tactic the WL shares with the Marauder, the WL needs an active pet. “50% increased crit damage with a pet? Fantastic. Where’s the pet? God knows. Oh the pet ran off too far and unsummoned itself, now you have to wait 15 seconds, waste 55AP to resummon him so he can get lost again.” Simply put, too much of the White Lion’s potential is buried within its pet, a pet which many WLs choose to run without.

If one was to compare the White Lion to the Marauder you would again be met with disparity after disparity. The right tree of both classes shares a crucial armor debuff, but aside from that they have little else in common. In this tree the WL is expected to deal direct damage with two of its only AoE abilities buried in this tree. On the other hand the Marauder has a tree with incredible debuffs universally applicable to all enemies. Going to the middle trees we see the WL having a tree focused on a pet holding aggro while the WL uses positional attacks; the Marauder has mostly different attacks meant to weaken the enemy for the kill with a snare, morale stopper, ailment which procs damage on spells, etc. So much of the WL’s middle tree is built around hate, but guess what – hate does not translate over into PvP. Why is the White Lion the only MDPS with an outgoing heal debuff? Why is the WL the only MDPS with a heal debuff as the mastery rank 13 ability while every other MDPS has their INCOMING heal debuff at mastery rank 9? Why is the White Lion the only MDPS whose heal debuff requires positional – yet it has no way of ignoring positional requirements like the WH/WE? Moving to the right tree you see almost no parity – the WL focuses on the pet doing damage while the player has mediocre abilities; the Marauder has an entire tree devoted to AoE and anti-magic.

There is very little similar between the White Lion and the Marauder to consider them mirrors. The White Lion is built around its pet and meant to rely on it to a degree which its mechanical mirror, the Squig Herder, is not. Across the board the Marauder has better abilities in every tree and more crowd control which is more reliable. Why are these two classes considered mirrors? Because there was nothing else left to compare them to. They were simply the last two classes left and got lumped together. The White Lion’s mechanic needs to be modeled after the Squig Herder so it is not as reliant on its pet and so that the pet is supplemental, not fundamental. The White Lion’s abilities and tactics need to mirror the Marauder more if they are to be anything close to mirrors. In the end, Destro will always say “At least the White Lion has Pounce.”

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  1. Ksan
    April 2, 2011 at 4:44 AM

    And thank god for pounce. How many babies would i offer up to Tzeentch if i could have a WS buff like the marauder; a WS debuff like the marauder? Lets just say no one would call me a “High” Elf any longer!

    And I had no idea that there was so little positional requirements on the mara. Good research Ekaslime.

  2. April 2, 2011 at 12:29 PM

    Having played both these careers extensively, I believe my opinion on the matter is somewhat valid. Firstly, I believe it is more accurate to compare the Hunter to Monstrosity(both are mostly AoE-focused. The first thing that immediately struck me as somewhat misinformed is the comment regarding Convulsive Slashing- no self-respecting marauder EVER uses this ability in their rotation. It’s very pricy in terms of AP, easily interrupted by both enemies and the player themselves and with an overall low DPS. Another thing is the million debuffs marauders have- while I’m busy stacking them all on a target, I’ve already been burst to 50% of my health in most cases. Some of them I use very rarely if at all- for example Thunderous Blow has been removed from my rotation for over a year now. Also, for the marauder to excel as a single target DPS, he has to spec into Brutality and Savagery for a build around 50% extra crit damage + armor + heal debuff, sacrificing the AoE knockdown and all AoE utility whatsoever. Let’s not forget that we have to switch between mutations to use some abilities- for example, if I wish to interrupt a caster cluster in front of me, I have to switch to Monstro, spew Mouth of Tzeentch and then be stuck with a useless AoE tree I’m not specced into for profiecient usage, until the remutation clock ticks and I can switch back to Sav to start dealing actual damage again. In this sense the marauder has to choose to either spec for full utility(cast time increase+interrupt+morale removal+full aoe+no actual dmg whatsoever), or full single target DPS. I’ve experimented with a three-tree spec, which you can only achieve with the extra renown mastery points at rr70+- I picked up the armor debuff, the crit tactic and the aoe knockdown- I ended up being a crappy jack of all trades excelling at nothing in actuality. This spec actually allows ONLY these three mentioned things to be picked from the mastery trees:)

    I run with the aforementioned single target spec. This will hopefully get my foe to about 60-50% health for a quick switch to Brutality and a burst with Guillotine which naturally doesn’t finish my target- I need to spam Impale a bit and then switch back to Sav to hopefully finish my target with the armor debuff. When in RvR I ALWAYS run with the 50% armor bypass tactic, 50% additional crit dmg tactic, 160 extra strength(applies to all mutations) and the increased heal debuff which also lets me leach healing. The last tactic is a must have and a life-saver, especially when going for the backlines through drowes of slayers. It lets me lifetap a healer and increases my survivability by 2-3 seconds. I’m also running with 7 pieces defensive Sov, after learning the hard way how useless I am in offensive(I get melted in 4 seconds).

    Throughout my different tactic builds I only switch the healing debuff tactic around for either flanking(mostly for PvE) or Riposite(when I know I’ll be facing mDPS). At the end of the day, I primarily use the Savagery and Brutality mutations, switching to Monstrosity only when facing a large mDPS cluster with my healers far away and my detaunt on cooldown. The heal proc saves my live 1 out of 3 times 😉 Also, the AP drain/gain tactics are practically useless, because they not only proc no more frequently than 1x/3secs, but they also destroy 40 AP/grant 40 AP over 3 seconds. Considering all the other things I need to slot, these have been gathering dust for many months now.
    As for Mutated Agressor- I only activate it in about 30% of all encounters- it costs valuable APs better spent on bursting down an enemy. Still, it can give an edge, albeit rarely.

    On to the white lion. I’ve only played this character to rr60(my marauder is at rr82 and my DoK at rr70), but from what I’ve experienced, I can say that this career relies more on burst damage and less on a billion debuffs you have to stack one after the other. I’ve always enjoyed how the WL armor debuff is in their AoE tree, but that’s just a relatively cosmetic thing. Pounce is a really nice ability, especially when used for chasing enemies or escaping clumbs of mDPS when you have an overextender in your own healer cluster. The 25% positional dmg debuff I rarely use, primarily because my APs are better spent bursting. The lion pet itself isn’t as buggy as many have cried. Remember- people only remember the criticism, because it’s more dramatic, and always forget the quiet praise. The pet does a decent amount of supplemental dmg and when instructed to only attack the player’s target, can be instrumental to victory. Fetch is a BIT more difficult to use than Terrible Embrace, I admit, but it’s still usable. The things I like about the WL are as follows: Fey Illusion- 20% slower autoattack on the affected enemy(prieceless against DoKs), not having to switch mutations to use certain abilities allowing for more focus, Coordinated Striker, Pounce. As far as tactics go the AP reduction tactic for the AoE tree abilities is priceless, Lion’s Fury- must have tactic for soloing, 50% more crit with pet active- same as marauder(if my pet starts behaving erratically, I just put it in passive stance for a bit and all is well again), Flashing claws- 10% extra parry comes in very handy. Brute Force sometimes replaces one of the above mentioned tactics. Lion’s Fury sometimes gets switched for 50% more autoattack speed. All in all, the WL is indeed more positional, and with less debuffs, AND with less actual WB vs WB utility(no morale-killer abilities, no actual CC), AND I rarely use the silence properly(but the marauder has none whatsoever). It is true that the career can use some improvement, especially the Guardian tree, which, save for Echoing Roar, rarely sees any use. In my opinion, it COULD get reworked into a debuff tree, much like Savagery, losing all the useless pet-centric skills. NEVERTHELESS, the WL is a VERY potent killing machine in the right hands. I’ve had WLs slaughter my marauder 1 on 1, both using def sov, both at rr80-83, both specced for crit/armor debuff/guillotine. These three things are the mirror-defining traits for me when I think about the WL and Mara. The mara is more versatile, but the WL has better burst(from my experience anyway) adding up to relatively equal killing power.

    Hope this wall of text helps:)

    • April 2, 2011 at 12:31 PM

      OMG! Did I write all of this shyte?! XD

    • April 2, 2011 at 1:09 PM

      My you left a novel for us to read! I don’t think Hunter to Monstrosity is a fair comparison. Hunter has two AoE abilities – two. Monstrosity has 4 out of 8. The White Lion has just about as much AoE as a Dragon-Gun specced WH – and Slashing Blade’s AP cost renders it unappealing unless one chooses to slot the tactic to lower the cost and be an AoE-tard trying to win at ProcHammer. Once again – calling Hunter the ‘AoE’ tree is very very misleading. I am sure many WLs may be offended by that 😉 Fetch is in many cases useless – even zealots parried the pet. The White Lion’s only strength is its burst, and with high AP costs, the auto-attack is sometimes the saving grace.

      The four tactics you mentioned I assume every Marauder runs as they have the most lethal potential behind them – bypass armor, sap heals, crit harder, hit harder = nice.

      I never played a Marauder before, I jumped on the PTS specced up into Savagery dueled some people and won every time. I just cannot see an argument that a 180 wounds debuff +800 tool-tip damage on a 5s CD is that low in a tree. 180 wounds = 1800 health lost, add a crit on that ability and you’re looking at an ability on a 5s CD that hits for 3k (on each new target, obviously spamming it on one target wont reap the same bonuses). All I would do is debuff armor, wounds, toughness, and by then the target was in dire straits.

      I still hold that the Marauder is ten-fold better than the WL in every aspect. Remove some of the ‘if pet is active’ stipulations on the WL’s abilities/tactics and balance out the trees abilities so they are closer mirrors and then we can start talking.

      • April 2, 2011 at 10:42 PM

        Hunter is AoE, Period. It has the WLs two AoE abilities in it. Doesn’t matter if they’re used at all 😉 Also doesn’t matter that some AoE abilities for the WL have been moved to other trees. It’s just semantically correct to cathegorize it like this. Also, no WL ever uses Slashing Blade anymore- it’s a stagger breaker at best and nothing more 😦 The lower AP cost tactic from that tree is very nice though:)

        Also, the wounds debuff should be used as a finisher, otherwise it times out before the 1800 life actually turns into damage. 😉

      • April 2, 2011 at 10:44 PM

        Plus, Pounce USED to be AoE, so for all intents and purposes, Hunter was originally designed to be the mirror of Monstro. 😉

  3. Ksan
    April 3, 2011 at 12:07 AM

    But pounce is not aoe! If the WL is a burst class, as you claim, then spamming the two aoe abilities at their disposal is (hopefully) not a common tactic, its certinly not bright! Some do however, and those that do are vainly trying to keep up with the marauder and choppa in the number of life tap procs they can manage. As this 1 spam-able aoe has no other utility and mediocre tool tip, they fail. I will be honest, i have not seen a WL use the channeled aoe in a solid year. If hunter was meant to be aoe that idea was scrapped early becuase mythic saw the WL for what it is, a single target burst class. Hence the only mdps forced into a 2hander! My parry will always be 10% behind a dual wielder, but my AA will always hit harder.

    As a career WL I agree that the WL is a burst class supplemented by mobility brought by pounce. However, no WL i have ever met will admit to an enjoyable experience with the pet, and every WL runs it on passive all the time. No if and or but.

    Fortunately/Unfortunately I play on a server with quiet a few intelligent destro who are aware of the WL dependence on the pet. Some just kill the pet right off the bat. An easy kill that only takes 2-3 global cool downs and half my tactics are useless! You may want to go back and try that WL again… you will find that doomflayer healers mitigate 60% of the cats damage, and those are the squishy ones. The WL runs with its pet because its allows us to utilize a few tactics, becuase occasionally you get lucky on a fetch, and for coordinated strike, which still does well against target who do not stack toughness.

    Closing comments, you say the WL is single target but you don’t have aa haste? What kind of burst do you manage?

    • April 3, 2011 at 12:54 AM

      Go to Karak Norn and talk to Beslen, Averatos, or Delcat. These guys can single target outdps SLAYERS. Bloody effin aoe slayers! Then tell me again the WL is weak.

      • April 3, 2011 at 12:57 AM

        Also, WL vs Marauder, 1v1, same gear level and RR- if I go for the pet, when it dies the player is still at 100% health and I’m at 60%. Then he continues spamming burst while I try to debuff. I die miserably.

    • April 3, 2011 at 1:31 PM

      Exactly as Ksan said, the only real AoE any WL uses is Slashing Blade – and that’s only if theyre either trying to buff their damage numbers OR win at ProcHammer – no one uses the channeled AoE. Maybe back when Pounce was AoE you could argue it fits better with Monstrosity, but now Hunter and Savagery share the armor debuff. There is simply too little AoE both on the class as a whole and on Hunter to compare it to Monstrosity.

      Arch, you mentioned no Marauder uses Convulsive Slashing – the same can be said for White Lions using Whirling Blade. As a rule of thumb channeled abilities aren’t very good and most classes don’t use them. And what gear are the WLs you mentioned on KN in? What gear are the slayers they are competing with? If the WL is not weak by your standards, and the Marauder is way stronger than the WL by most standards, then what does that mean the Marauder does to Order?

      I think the point I’m trying to drive at is that there is absolutely so little in common between these classes that neither tree really mirrors the other. Instead of 3 trees that mirror over you really have 6 individual trees some of which happen to share an ability or two.

      • April 4, 2011 at 7:27 AM

        No argument there. What similarities there were in the past have been reduced substantially. Still, my primary point is that both these classes are heavy ST hitters, albeit with different mechanics.
        I’m also not claiming the marauder is weak in comparison to the WL- it used to be, before Savagery was buffed. I just got the impression that your overall idea of the WL is that it can’t reach the same dmg and survivability potential. If that’s the case I can’t agree with you.
        And now I’ll go into my favourite tangent of how ridiculously OP slayers are, because I just can’t let a mention of their existence go untrolled. Most likely choppas are OP as well, but I’ve more often been on the receiving end of the blasphemous stunties and their dreaded Inevitable Doom and Shatter Limbs, so in my book, even though both these careers need nerfing, the slayer needs it with a much greater urgency. In truth, I’ve never played either of these careers past rank 8, so I can’t really compare how they work and how easymode they really are. Thing is, they make it seem like they have easymode way too often for it not to be at least partially so;)

      • April 4, 2011 at 11:57 AM

        With today’s defensive sets, the WL cannot reach the same survivability potential – it will never win procHammer against dual-wield AoE spamming classes. While the WL has higher burst, it runs out of AP far faster and if it doesn’t kill its target fast its sittin pretty with an auto-attack. To get its parry to be on par with other mdps it needs a lion.
        Maybe in an one-on-one situation the WL can excel since the enemy is less likely to kill the pet (on which it relies so much) but in the larger battle setting (ORvR, cities, scs) with all the AoE being spammed today the pet dies in seconds and effectively cuts off the WLs access to the bonuses it needs to be on par with other mdps.

  4. Ksan
    April 3, 2011 at 12:12 AM

    PS… I will personally slap the man, woman or child that ever PRAISED the Lions pathing.

  5. zizlak
    April 4, 2011 at 2:47 AM

    Pounce < Terrible Embrace ..

    The reason is simple..just look around when you are facing premades. It's better to pull the enemy into your assist-train..than to jump into the enemies and be there all alone. I know of Marauders literally making their way to rr90 just by pulling the enemies with TE..

    Overall I think that the WL is not a weak carrier, but only difficult to play (pet managing is more a concern than with other careers because of pathing problems). The marauder is just a beast and even got more buffed in 1.4 plus the defensive-sets..

  6. April 4, 2011 at 12:37 PM

    By dual-wielding AoE spamming classes you of course mean slayers and choppas(notice the lowercase letters- they are proportional to my disdain for both). I haven’t seen any DPS-oriented marauder spec for AoE- therefore marauders can only benefit from prochammer healing and shielding as much as AoE spammers when in utility mode- namely when debuffing morales and mass interrupting while backed by a group with solid DPS. Technically, the marauder has only a slight advantage over the WL when it comes to proc frequency because of his dual wield. However, it’s nowhere near as severe a difference as between WLs and slayers/choppas.
    Also, for the most case I have been discussing the marauder and WL in a 1v1 environment and very frequently one against the other. As I’ve said a billion times before, no class is en par with slayers, not even choppas. I’m not even bringing that into the comparison. I already said that the WL could use buffs to tactic utility(not relying on the pet being there) and a total redesign of the Guardian tree to be a bit more like the current marauder Savagery but with different debuffs or somewhat lower debuff values, not dependent on the pet.
    Still, let’s for a moment suppose the WL has decided to abandon the pet altogether and go for these tactics: Pack Hunting(+50%autoattack), Hack and Slash(halves the AP costs of the primary ST melee attack and the AoE spammable attack for hopes of heal-procs to 15AP), Lionheart(buffs the dmg of this ability, removes the cursed requirement, lowers AP cost to 20AP), Loner(25% more dmg when without a pet). Lionheart could be substituted for Brute Force is the WL has decided to stack WS and needs the extra strength. In any case, it’s a very viable build. As for parry- when facing 3+ players of similar RR, every mDPS class that doesn’t have Repel Blasphemy or has Confusing Movements on cooldown won’t be saved no matter how much more parry they have. In my opinion Parry really comes into play in 1v1 situations, where, even though the WL itself has generally lower parry than dualwielders, the WL can compensate by nullifying the enemy’s parry with its block-/parry-strikethrough, basically bringing the two opponents on equal terms in regard to parry. These are my observations and sentiments.:)

    • April 4, 2011 at 12:48 PM

      Come to Gorfang and you’ll find a whole host of AoE Marauders winning at procHammer ;)Great-weapons only grant a 10% block strikthrough I believe. Correct me if I’m wrong on this one, but its what I’ve been told.

      • April 4, 2011 at 2:01 PM

        On Norn I’ve seen only one marauder go for AoE. The rest either use my spec- Savagery+Brutality or go full Brutality. I guess Destro on Norn mostly prefers ST melee trains, while Order retains the taste for bomb wbs. One of the oldest(if not the oldest) Order guild on Norn has ALWAYS run in zerg/bomb format. That’s my experience though, plus Order used to be dominant on Norn for about a year, with things evening out a bit lately after a large number of elitist nolifers /gquit. Still, the first side to field a full RR100 guild party was Order and they still have more RR100s than us. Server specifics I guess.

      • April 4, 2011 at 2:09 PM

        Also, Greatweapons do indeed give 10% strikethrough, although that should be more than sufficient to nullify the parry advantage of an offhand weapon in a 1v1 situation, I believe. Or is there something I’m missing?

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